ReStory CEO Chris Bruno talks about the gist of his book, Sage: A Man's Guide Into His Second Passage, which guides men into the second half of life.
Young heroes dominate the narrative in books and films, but behind every one of them is another man that is all too often unspoken. That person is the sage. It is Harry Potter’s Dumbledore, Frodo’s Gandalf, and Luke Skywalker’s Yoda. It is the older, wiser male who is at the point in his life where he has nothing to prove anymore. Every man in this world is eventually going to get to that stage. Many would consider the second half of life as past a man’s prime. But to Chris Bruno, it is the pinnacle of the masculine journey. It is when we shape our legacy in the world. In this conversation with Brett Snodgrass, he unpacks everything there is to understand about this misunderstood stage of a man’s life. He teaches us how we can take on our new societal role as bearers of knowledge and wisdom, as holders of space for others, and as contented elders living in the present in this fast-paced world. Tune in and learn how you can navigate this journey when it’s time for you to take it!
I have Chris Bruno, who’s the author of Sage: A Man’s Guide Into His Second Passage. This is an awesome interview for men entering into the second part of their life. Let’s go.
What’s going on? This is another episode of the Iron Deep show. I have author and counselor, Chris Bruno on this episode with me. What’s going on, Chris?
It’s so great to be here with you. Great to meet you. Thanks for having me on the show.
We got a chance to catch up a little bit. I’ve heard about Chris through his books. I read one of his first books called the Man Maker Project: A Father’s Guide to Initiating His Son into Manhood. A must read book especially if you have sons and they’re reaching that certain point in their teenage years when to initiate them into manhood.
You have a new book, Chris, which again, speaks to me and it speaks to a lot of our audience, Sage: A Man’s Guide Into His Second Passage. We’re talking about men that are in maybe mid-30s, 40s, or 50s into that second part of life. You’re also the CEO of Restoration Project and the CEO of ReStory Counseling. You’re a counselor. When I think about you, you have spent years helping men recover their hearts. Is that a pretty good description of what you’ve been doing?
I love that phrase. Recover your heart. I think that is what this journey of our life is all about.
Before we dive into this new book, Sage: A Man’s Guide Into His Second Passage, why don’t you talk about yourself and Restoration Project as well?
I like to start introductions based on the relationships that I have. I live in Northern Colorado. I have been married for several years. We have three mostly adult children. We are almost empty nesters at this point. We got one year left. My wife, Beth, and I met and married in college, and then spent a good chunk of years, almost a decade living overseas and doing missions work overseas. We then landed back in the States, and that’s when we launched Restoration Project and ReStory Counseling.
Restoration Project is a ministry focused on helping men recover their hearts. Our vision is to see a world of restored men. We are constantly looking for ways to help guys engage in areas of fatherhood and brotherhood, and also in understanding ourselves as the sons of God. Fatherhood, brotherhood, and sonship. Each man, regardless of whether he has children, is a father. He’s designed to bring father energy to the world. Whether or not he has siblings, he is designed by God to be a brother, and then all of us are sons as well. That’s the scope of the work that we’re doing. We provide resources and experiences for guys in any of those places along the journey.
You’ve been pouring into men for many years now. Somewhere along their journey or way, sometimes men lose their way. Maybe they lose heart. That’s exactly what you do. You help guys find that again. Can you tell us about your own experience in that? Have you had your own experience where you’ve had this revelation, emptiness, and lost soul? Even in your new book, this trimmer in your soul. Do you have your own experience with that?
Honestly, in all the spaces where I live, I’m constantly trying to live out loud to share what’s happening to the world outside and what’s happening on the inside. For me, this is a while ago, but back when I was in my late twenties and we had our first child, I had a little bit of a moment where I realized as I’m holding my son, it was like I know that I didn’t get what I needed as a man from the men further along in the journey than me, my grandfathers, and my father. I don’t know that I have inside of me what I want to offer him, so I needed to do some work there. That was when I was in my late twenties.
Over the course of his growing-up years, we were overseas doing Christian ministry. There were a lot of younger men who were graduating out of college and launching out into life. It was their first step into adulthood. They were landing on my teams and they were asking some of those very same questions. I was 5, 6, 7, or 10 years older than them and I didn’t know that I had the answers. For me, there was a sense of, “I don’t know this journey either.” That is where it was like, I need to step in and figure this out and be intentional about my own healing, process, and journey so that I am a full and mostly recovered man. I can also work with other guys to recover their hearts. I say that because it’s a lifelong journey. We’re never done. We would all say that, but I knew that it had to start with me.
I could tell by your series of books, it seems like you are living out your seasons of life. You wrote the Man Maker Project talking about your own experience with your own son. You have the Brotherhood Primer book and you talk even in this new book, Sage, about your own brotherhood, relationships, and how those strong bonds have shaped you. Now, you’re entering into this second passage of life. That’s why you wrote the book, Sage: A Man’s Guide Into His Second Passage. Let’s talk about that word. I read Sage. If I don’t read the second part, I’m like, “What does that mean? What are we talking about here?” Can you talk about your experience? What is Sage?
Let me focus first on the word passage. The Man Maker Project is about the first passage of a man’s life when he transitions from a boy into a man. Sage is about the second passage of a man’s life when he transitions from man into sage. As a Western culture in society, we don’t do well in either of these passages. We don’t focus well with a lot of intention, clarity, and plan on what it looks like to raise our boys into men, but then we have a little bit more in that category, but very little in the sense of, “What does it mean to go from man into sage?” For the most part, it means us growing and getting older.
Some people call it the second half of your life. When you hit that 35, 45, 55-year-old range, it’s like, you come to grips with the reality of, “A good portion of my life is behind me. I need to be intentional about how I’m going to invest the next season of my life.” That’s what I mean by the first passage and the second passage. The word sage, if you’re going to search Amazon for sage or whatever, you’re probably going to come up with an herb.
It’s funny. I was getting ready to do this interview and I was looking at my own cabinet and all my spices. I saw sage. I was like, “There you go.”
It’s not a commonly used word with regard to a person, but another word for that is elder. When we think about an elder, a couple of things come to mind. One is the role or the position of a person in a church congregation. This is an elder. You’re on the elder board. There are responsibilities that you have. There’s a role that you have, a pastoral role. You become an elder.
The other word that comes to mind is elderly. We become elderly, and in my mind, there’s a huge difference between being an elder and being elderly. When I use the word sage, I’m not meaning a role or a responsibility like in church. I’m also not meaning someone who’s just old, elderly. I’m meaning someone who’s stepping into the role of being what I call the pylons of society, these older, wiser, experienced, and settled people. Men and women both can be sages, but they step into the space of more than offering what they do. They bring their presence. They bring the strength of their presence. That is a sage.
In the book, I talk about this a little bit, but behind every hero is another hero that’s often unspoken and that other hero is a sage. In our modern-day stories and all that, behind every Frodo is a Gandalf. Behind every Luke is a Yoda. Behind every Harry Potter is a Dumbledore. There’s that sage type of person. The hero of the story, Harry Potter wouldn’t be Harry Potter without Dumbledore. He is probably the most important person in the journey of becoming that younger hero. He’s that guide, that elder, and that sage.
If we do poorly in the rites of passage for boys becoming men which we could spend a whole show talking about that, we do poorly in men becoming sages. I feel like this sense of we graduate into manhood, and then we just assume that manhood continues on and on until we pass away. The reality is there is another stage and season that we need to intentionally pass on, pass through, and live into.
In my mind, both sociologically and biblically, it is the pinnacle of manhood. Not the king, not the hero, not the warrior. That’s good. That’s a hugely important part of a man’s life, but the sage is what we’re aiming for. The sage is where we want to land. The highest level of our impact in the world comes from the season of sage.
I love how you unraveled that. That’s amazing. It made me want to step into that. You talked about our Western culture. Men don’t step into that. Instead, they maybe go in a different direction. Maybe they’ve said, “I’ve done my time. I’ve done the work I’m supposed to do now. I’m going to rest, become older, work on their golf swing, or whatever that is. Go collect some sea shells in retirement. They don’t step into that. Is that what you’re seeing? What is stopping? Is it the training? Is it the awareness that they don’t know how to or they didn’t get trained before? Can you talk to us about that a little bit? Where are we losing that in this season? I see it a lot too.
There are so many directions that I could go in answering that question. First, I feel like we have an epidemic of masculine absence. What I mean by that is we don’t have these rites of passage for boys to become men because by and large, a lot of us men are absent in their lives, in that kind of intentional way. I have nothing against retirement, golf, and seashells but it’s like graduating into a different kind of masculine absence where our presence is the most important thing that we can bring to the world. More than what we do. More than what we provide. Our legacy is not the inheritance in the sense of finances. The legacy and inheritance that we leave is the impact of our presence.
That occurs when we have kids at home and we’re trying to raise them up, grow them, and father them. At the same time, it is in this sage space and sage season of life. Our presence is necessary. Now, presence doesn’t mean you have to go, “Start another company. Conquer another hill. Do another ministry. Do all that stuff.” You could play plenty of golf in the season of Sage, but how are you investing yourself? How are you investing your presence with your community and other people? It doesn’t mean you’re bringing advice. I joke about this all the time. In our day and age, I do not ask another man for advice. YouTube is far more helpful at the end of the day.
They’re like, “Own in. I have 2 or 3 minutes. I can skim, and I can look at what do I do with X, Y, Z.” The mortgage, the car, or whatever it is that I’m looking for advice on. I need presence. I need an older man to sit with me, be with me, and listen to have enough of his own self settled and present so that I can come unraveled. I’ve needed that over the course of my life. That is what I’m talking about here, that season of sage. I have nothing against the golf swing, but I also don’t want guys to disappear and continue in this epidemic of masculine absence.
I love when you talk about presence. We have so much information if we want to learn something and learn how to do something. For example, I wanted to see, “How do I cut out caffeine in my life?” If I seem a little off, it’s because it’s my first day where I am not drinking caffeine. I’m trying to cut that out, but I looked up podcasts, looked up YouTube, and try to figure that out. I can do that and find the information on that, but it’s the presence. Men need other men in their life.
That’s why Iron Deep was born and Restoration Project. We need other men in our life. I want to talk about your own experience. Go into a story of yourself. Was there a sage in your life? Can you describe your experience with that? What was that like? Can you take us into that story? What does that even look like if, for someone in your own life, you would say, “That was a sage in my life?”
I talk about this man in the book a little bit. His name is Ben. I grew up in the mountains here in Colorado, and we were pretty remote. The school was a 45-minute drive away. It was a challenge for me to get actual that presence context with many people in general. The family context that I grew up in was my older sister and me. There are only two of us in our family. My older sister has pretty severe mental and physical disabilities and she was born with them. She’s still alive. She’s about five years older than I am, but she operates at maybe about a one-year-old level. She cannot care for herself. She can walk and talk, but that was even a journey. She can’t hold a conversation very well.
That was the context in which I was born. To go back many years when I was born, our world did not do well with services for people with these kinds of disabilities. My sister was at home. Much of my mom and my dad’s focus was on providing for her needs. I often found myself in this vacuous, empty landscape of my own self, my own soul, and all that. My dad is a very loyal man. He was very present in the sense of making provision for us, but he did a far more in focusing on providing for her needs than being aware of who I was as a boy.
Fast forward, I’m a teenager and I’m in high school. I don’t have the kind of relationship with my dad to have any kind of conversation about that significant season of a boy’s life. He needs that testing ground or tending ground, someone to listen and speak in. This man, Ben, was a youth group leader, a young life leader that I met and was engaged and involved with. He himself was older. Not your typical 22-year-old young life leader. He was already in his 40s at that point.
I remember going to Ben’s house and we would go for youth group time, but I would specifically go about an hour early. He knew that I would be there. I would stop at 7-Eleven and get one of their fancy dancy gourmet coffees and bring it up to him. We would walk outside. He also lived in the mountains. We would walk out to this split rail fence that he had back behind his house.
I remember each of us leaning on the fence, both of us having coffee in hand, not drinking it because it was so bad, but just having a coffee in hand. Each of us has a leg up on the lower rail and talking. Here’s the thing. I don’t remember him talking. I remember me doing a lot of talking. I remember him looking at me with intention. I had both his attention and his intention. I had his questions. I had his compassion.
I was all over the map trying to figure out girls and trying to figure out life. Where am I going to go to college? How do I handle this emotionally vacuous family that I was growing up in? All those things. Ben brought his presence. I can honestly say that if it wasn’t for Ben, I don’t think I would’ve made it through high school and into college. He gave me like, “I want to be like Ben. That’s the man that I want to be like.” I’m still aiming to be like Ben, but that’s probably my first experience with that kind of sage.
When I was reading this book, I think the audience too can start picturing, was there someone in your life that did that? I remember there was a man named Gary in college. Jim and I talk about him in the past. I was going through a very dark time. He met with me in my senior year and knew that I was on the basketball team. He came to the basketball games. He could see that I was having a difficult time and overheard some people talking about me going through this difficult time. He met with me for coffee every single week in my senior year and his presence.
I don’t even remember what we talked about that much, honestly. I just remember he was there for me during that difficult time. The reason why I pointed that out is, if you’re tuning in, who was it in your life? Typically, I wanted to do that for someone else. You wanted to pass that because that meant so much to you as well.
Chris, towards the end of the book, you talked about some of the practical things and what this sage might look like. I want to talk about some of those. 1) You talked about settled contentment. I want to talk about that. I talked to a lot of business owners and that word of being content. We’re always striving for something, and then we reach this certain time. Again, we’re entering the second half of life and we’re still not content. Maybe we try to climb it out of their mountain. Maybe that’s going to do it for us. Sometimes it’s like, “I never want to settle.” Can you talk to us about this word of why you went down that road of sage-settled contentment?
First of all, when we think about the word content, contentment doesn’t have a number attached to it. There’s not a certain number that is in a bank account, a certain number of successes, or a certain number of first, second, or third place. There’s not a number associated with contentment, even the word enough. Do you have enough? Am I enough? Am I man enough? What is enough? That’s not the categories that we’re talking about here. Contentment is not something external. We will not receive contentment from something external. Contentment and all the things I talk about in Sage are internal.
This is why this is an important shift from the season of being that warrior where you’re conquering the hills, fighting battles, and the king sitting on the throne or ruling your domain. There is a significant shift in the sage because he no longer has the need to prove himself, conquer anything, be bigger, and be stronger. All of those things, there is a settling inside of him that comes to a place of, “I can be well.” We read this in the ancient church fathers and mothers. We read this in all kinds of literature. We read this in scriptural. There is a sense of, “I can be well with whatever I have or don’t have. It is not a matter of my possessions. It is a matter of what possesses me.”
The subtle contentment, I talk about that in this sense. When I was a boy, I had to be pretty scrappy to make my own way, do my own thing, and meet my own needs. A sage who moves into the subtle contentment and space recognizes how scrappy he’s had to be, and then allows for that inner child, that younger part of him, or that story of who he was to take a rest. He doesn’t have to be scrappy anymore because he doesn’t have to go after those things anymore. The phrasing that I like to use with the first and second passages is, the task of the first passage is to find the man within the boy and call him forth. The task of the second passage is to find the boy within the man and bring him home to that subtleness.
That scrappy boy that I had to be, that you had to be, and that many of us had to be, let him come home in a way that like he gets to rest now. He doesn’t have to prove anything anymore. That is what I mean by subtle contentment, but it takes work to do that. It’s this internal shift and internal posture that we need to find. It’s some elements of your story. It’s some elements of where you’ve had to be. It’s some elements of even how you’ve had to be throughout your life. Doing some work in that to go, “What if there are some other ways of me being that can lead me to a place of contentment?
When you think about sages in your life, whether it’s the guy that you met in college, Ben, or any of these fictional characters that I’ve talked about, they have a sense of subtleness about them. Think about when Luke first finds Yoda. He’s in a hovel somewhere on a far and distant planet. All he’s concerned about is stew. Luke is all spun out about all the things and the battles, and Yoda has this contentment. That’s part of the presence that we can bring as sages to the world. It’s like, “I have nothing more that I need to prove. I can be with you.” If I need to fight, I can fight for sure. I know how to do that. We see sages do that too, and we don’t have to. That’s what I mean by subtle contentment.
I was digging into when you talked about bringing the boy home or back into the man. Again, somewhere, we’ve lost that childlikeness. It’s what Christ talks about. Just to be the child. I think even about my own children. You talked about bringing that back into the presence. They’re always present. They’re always in the moment. They’re not thinking about or worried about a lot of stuff.
They’re just in the present and bringing that together. That’s why even at our events, I want to bring out some of that boyishness, some of that childlikeness. Let’s have some fun. Let’s play. Is that some of the things that you’re talking about? Men lose along the way because we wake up and we’re like, “I have all this stuff I have to do, to think about, and to manage.”
Most of a man’s life is the accumulation of problems. What I mean by that is not just relationship problems, but, “I have a new car. I have a new toy. I have a new house. I have a new grill or whatever it is that I have to tend to. I have more problems because I have more stuff.” I think what you’re talking about definitely is bringing us back to some place of that childlikeness and playfulness, for sure. Also, below that, I want to honor some of the work. I want to honor what that scrappy boy had to do to provide for his own needs. Given that family of origin scenario, he did well. He made it.
Maybe not all of the choices that he made along the way were the best ones. Maybe they led them into brokenness, sinfulness, addiction, or whatever it is. I want to honor the choices that he made at that time and say, “I’m having a conversation.” Even the psalmist has conversations with his own soul. “Why so downcast, my soul? Why so disturbed within me?” I have those conversations with myself all the time. I’ll be like, “Little Chris inside of me, why are you anxious right now? What can we do differently than go towards the scrappiness or addiction? How can we find alternate ways to be? Come home. Let’s rest.” That’s what I mean by that too.
I love that you bring in how Jesus admonishes the disciples. He says, “No. Let the little children come.” As you become like them, you enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That is so important for us that as we grow into this manhood that is supposed to not at all be childlike or not at all be weak, it’s more when we attend to those younger parts of us that we come closer to the kingdom of heaven.
A couple of other things to go on. We talked about subtle contentment as a characteristic of this age. I love when you talk about inner hospitality. Maybe went in a couple of stories about maybe we were not very hospitable in your own story and your own experience when people have brought you in for something. You talked about this inner hospitality. Talk about that. What does that exactly mean when it comes to this?
Think about when you have people over to your house. You’re welcoming them into your home. You’re creating space for them to be. You’ve maybe thought about which meal you’re going to serve. You’ve thought about what room you’re going to sit in. Hospitality, if we can think about that, is creating space. If you have inside of you no space, if you’re constantly full of thoughts and worries. If you’re listening to someone and you’re always thinking, “What am I going to say next? How am I going to respond? What story am I going to share?” there’s no space for that other person to be.
Inner hospitality, in my mind, is inside of you. Is there enough space for you to be back to settled and content for you to sit down? Is there space for someone else to be present to where you’re not constantly running off to the next thing or thinking about the next thing? One quick example of that is I was on the phone. My daughter is doing a documentary film, so I was helping her do some research.
I called up this guy that we were thinking about talking to and asking. He’s in his 70s. I was on the phone for about 45 minutes. I had maybe twenty words that I could offer. I wanted to ask questions, but he wouldn’t even listen to my questions. I got off the phone and I’m like, “There’s no inner hospitality in this man because he filled the entire space. He filled the entire phone call with himself.”
What we need in order to bring that presence is to be hospitable to other people. That starts first with us. Do we have space inside of us? Can we invite other people to, “Where are you? How would you like to be together right now? Come sit down and let me be with you because I don’t have anything to prove to you.” That’s what I mean by inner hospitality.
Especially in our modern world and the guys I talked to, we don’t leave space. We don’t have space in our minds. We think maybe we’re even resting, but we’re still thinking about something. We’re still listening to something. We’re still doing something. It’s just spinning and we never make space for even our own self, let alone for someone else to make space for them. Thanks for pointing that out. Let’s talk about one more. You talk about generous spirituality. Can you talk about that? What does that mean when you put generous before that spirituality?
In my younger years as a believer, I was a zealot. I was going after it. I wanted to learn all the information and have all the black-and-white categories of truth and not truth and right and wrong. I was voracious in my reading and in my learning. I had theology systematized. Everything had its place. I then went into missions. I moved overseas and I experienced a totally different way of understanding God, myself, and the world.
It’s not that anything shifted in my core theology, but some significant things shifted in my understanding of belief, belonging, church, engagement of the community, and the individual versus the group. All of that stuff began to shift inside of me. I was recognizing how I was trained as a person in ministry or as a missionary wasn’t working where I lived and with the people that I was wanting to reach and introduce to faith. They were coming, but they were coming from a totally different path.
I’ll give a brief example. I was trained that you have to believe before you belong. You had to make some faith statement before you even belonged to our community. You had to be right before you could belong. I found in the context that I was living that it was far the opposite. It was much more important for people to belong wherever they were, whatever their perspectives were, whatever their spirituality was, their religion, their sexuality, and whatever it was that they were. It was more important for us to say, “You are welcome here. You can belong with us and to us. We will consider you one of us.” There’s no us and them anymore. There’s no right and wrong. There is just the community. Come belong. What I was noticing is that, as they belong, they began to believe.
When I talk about generous spirituality, there is a sense of, it is not my task anymore to make sure that you have right and wrong clearly identified. That you believe what is right and you don’t believe what is wrong. That you are black or white, in or out, us or them, or any of those kinds of things. My task is to bring a sense of welcome, a sense of generosity, and a sense of presence.
As Jesus does, I will sit at the table with whoever else will sit at the table with me. I will share a cup, share a meal, share a conversation, and share friendship, joy, and companionship with whoever will be there in the sense of generosity. I will still hold who I am and what I believe, and allow for us to be together at the same table. Through that relational style of engagement, that is something that a sage, a generously spiritual person has. “Come to me. As we are together, we will discover where we’re going.”
This is an amazing book. You got to check out Sage: A Man’s Guide Into His Second Passage. One of my final questions is this. You also said, this is a journey and this takes a lot of work. It’s a never-ending journey because this isn’t something that someone’s going to read this information and be like, “I’m going to do everything that you said.”
Can you talk about what type of work can men do to become? Most of the people tuning in to this want to be there. They have that desire, but they get lost, they’re tripped up, they don’t know how, and they give up sometimes. They’re just yo-yo. They’re like, “I’m going to do it, but it’s too hard.” Can you talk about some of the men that you’ve worked with and the work that men put into this on a daily basis?
I’m going to start where you started. It’s a journey. You can’t summit a mountain without taking your first few steps right out of the car at the trailhead, so you have to just get out of the car. Some of it is having a couple of categories. First, you will do far better in any journey of a man, whether you are raising your boys or girls, or becoming a sage, if you have other men with you.
I was talking with a friend of mine and we’ve got some things that we’re working on in the area of interviewing a guy around his forge and his metal-making. One of the things he said was that strength comes from the forging, sharpness comes from the other iron. We talk about iron sharpening iron. We need other men to sharpen us. Strength comes far before you can even sharpen the metal itself. The forging of the metal and the melting of the metal, that is something that no one else can do for you. It’s helpful to have a company of men, a collection of men, a cadre of guys that you are living life with who are journeying through similar types of that life stage.
That gets into the Brotherhood book, which is a whole other conversation. The first is, who are the guys that you can be with? The second is, you need a guide. You need someone. This is someone like you. This is someone like a counselor. This is someone like a coach or a sage, but don’t expect the guide to do the work for you. The guide is just there to help you know what some of the next steps might be.
Also, establish some good rhythms for yourself. Humans are the only creatures on earth that have the capacity for reflection. When we offer ourselves the space for reflection, it’s important for us to take it. Journal, talk, sit, stare at a river going by, and think or reflect on your life, and begin to do some of that reflection. In the book, I’ve got some reflection questions and some journeys that you can go through. There is some of that offered there. Taking up the space, whether you’re a journaler or not, whether you talk things out or write things out, reflect. That is the number one thing to get out of the car and start walking up that trail towards the sage.
Get involved in some things. Come to some of the things that you are offering. You guys come to the things that Brett is offering. We do some similar things at Restoration Project. Come to some of those. In January 2024, I am taking a group. This is open now for registration if you want to join us. I’m taking a group of men to Scotland for a sage experience journey where we’re going to talk about these categories of what does it mean to step into these places? Do some things like that. Step into some of those places. Those would be the first things.
The final thing is, allow yourself to take the time that you need because you didn’t become a man overnight and you’re not going to become a sage overnight. Just allow for it to be a journey that you’re on. In that journey, it’s going to be 1 step at a time, 1 piece at a time, 1 story at a time, and 1 process at a time. Just keep moving. Don’t lose sight of where you’re headed because where you are feels a little rough.
Thank you so much for sharing all of your feedback and wisdom, Chris. I appreciate you so much for your time with our audience. Where’s the best place for someone to get Sage: A Man’s Guide Into His Second Passage, any of your other books, or even the checkout Restoration Project?
All the books are online on Amazon, so just hop on Amazon. That’s probably the best place to get it. Search for Sage and my name. You should be able to find it. Also, if you’re interested in getting the first chapter to check out any of the books that I have and any of the first chapters, you want to dip your toe into the water first. You can go to RestorationProject.net/FirstChapter and you can download the first chapter of any of the books there. Those would probably be the best places to find us. If you’re looking for a guide or someone to walk with you, ReStory.Life is the counseling center that we have. We do work with people all around the world, so check us out at ReStory.Life as well.
Check that out on our website, IronDeep.com. That’s a wrap with Chris Bruno. Thanks so much, Chris. God bless you.